| Death Of Osama Bin Laden

2nd May '11 by flyingbull

17 comments 10219 reads

Barack Obama's full statement on the death of Osama bin Laden
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/barack-obama-statement-bin-laden

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Flyingbull

Premium Member

17 comments

extrader

2nd May '11

Hi all,

Well, now that the US has "rounded up the usual suspect(s)", I wonder who the next hate figure to rally the populace against will be ?

I'd have thought Ahmedinajad a while back, but it's rather looking as though the US is going to have to swallow its pride and sit down and 'talk turkey' with the Iranians, if the US exit from Iraq is to have any chance of success.

Which, bringing us back to Energy, suggests to me that the Gulf Arabs will have to be more accommodating to their northern neighbour - and that oil prices are likely to stay high.

FWIW

JPGH

2nd May '11

posted this over on the other place.

The whole Al Qaeda question/phenomena has moved on considerably since that day most of us first became aware of their existance i.e. 11 Sept 2001 so I am not convinced the death of its figurehead will change much in way of Al Qaeda actions or rhetoric will operate from today onwards.
Would like to know who is behind the funding and what data/documentation the Special Forces managed to capture from the house in which he was holed up.

Although it is a great result that this individual has been eliminated, I would have preferred to put him before an international court behind "open doors" for all in world (both "West" and East) to see and hear what he has to say to the list of charges put before him, to see what defence if any he has......before his sentence (death) is passed. The US here were caught between a rock and a hard place as to how to pursue that course of action versus the quick and easy solution they opted for this morning. A court/trial would have opened up all sorts of securiy headaches and old wounds. Killing and dumping body at sea eliminated the political fireball of a funeral so probably a sensible call.

I can't help feeling that closure for victims (in US, Europe, Africa, Middle and Far East) before/after during this mans reign of influence/terror has not ben fully achieved here by the quick method of his demise.

As for impact on energy markets... Bin Ladens death may suggest that the terror premium in oil price may need to come down a little but from what I have been observing over last few years the AL Qaeda threat to oil supply seemed fairly low over so am not expecting a significant drop today/tomorrow when markets reopen.

JPGH

emptyend

2nd May '11

Although it is a great result that this individual has been eliminated, I would have preferred to put him before an international court behind "open doors" for all in world (both "West" and East) to see and hear what he has to say to the list of charges put before him, to see what defence if any he has......before his sentence (death) is passed

I must say that I didn't think it remotely appropriate that various US politicians were crowing that Bin Laden had been "brought to justice" - when what had actually happened was that all sorts of judicial and diplomatic processes had been sidestepped by taking him out on Pakistani soil.

Having said that, both the summary "justice" and the very smart idea of burying him at sea were highly pragmatic decisions. However, that won't be "the end of it", as many Americans appear to hope (no doubt having been misled by the excessive media/political focus on the single individual).

As to oil prices, I'd say there is a near-zero impact.......though retaliations may have an oil dimension - and there remains the question of what will happen with Syria. More volatility, if anything?

loglorry

3rd May '11

I'm sure that the US will argue that taking out the man who has openly admitted and bragged that he gave the order to kill thousands of US citizens on US soil justifies killing him without a proper judicial process. I have to admit I can see there point in many ways.

Having said that I'm sure there will be others to take his place so no real change.

The only impact I see to the markets is if a retaliation plot to perhaps blow up a US target is carried out. That is just the sort of thing that will hit markets very hard right now.

kenobi

3rd May '11

I don't really want to get into the details, but this obl / 911 thing has seemed fishy from the start, weren't we promised proof ? what proof have we seen ? how do we know it was him behind 911 ? we have a grainy video where he appears to be confessing to it, or braging about it, but it doesn't look much like him, whats the proof ?

if its so conclusive, why is it that even now, after his supposed death, his fbi most wanted page still makes no mention of 911 ?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

All we can hope is that he has been captured rather than killed and information from him will be used to stop more attacks, and that this will make the taliban more inclined to negotiate and we can bring some kind of peace to Afghanistan, and move on, it's not been a good 10 years since 911, hopefully we can turn the page, reduce defence spending in the US , get the deficit under some sort of control, and hopefully improve the economy in the longer term,

Cuthbert C

3rd May '11

what proof do you have in mind?

his fingerprints on a surviving box-cutter?

as always some people prefer incredible conspiracy theories to more straightforward explanations

there are still people who belive the earth is flat and all evidence to the contrary has been concocted

personally I find the generally accepted version of events to be overwhelmingly believable

but more to the point the conspiracy theorists seem to be the same people who have been abducted by aliens and taken to where Elvis lives

kenobi

3rd May '11

yes, maybe you're right, maybe I'm being paranoid, but it does seem strange to me that we've fought a 10 year war in afgahnistan based on the belief that bin laden was behind 911, but we don't have enough evidence to put 911 on the wanted poster ?

Perhaps some of the "proof" is highly sensitive, and cannot be shared, but then they said that about the proof regarding wmd's as I recall,

K

kenobi

3rd May '11

Sorry, just in case what I was saying was not clear,

I was referring to the fbi most wanted page

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

where he is accused of embassy bombings, but no 911,

strange given that 911 is the thing that sparked the wars and the worldwide man hunt for him,

So you'll forgive me if I'm skeptical,

jseth123

3rd May '11

Hi Kenobi,

I'm not entirely clear what you are sceptical of?

My memory of the official motivation for the "War on Terror" after 9/11 is a little sketchy and therefore I cannot remember if it was officially stated that they invaded Afghanistan purely to assassinate Bin Laden, as you are suggesting (unlikely IMO); however, it seems to me that if the President of the USA declares that is a goal of the invasion then, for me, this supercedes the FBI's most wanted list. The war in Afghanistan has been continued for a long time after Osama was known to have been in Pakistan and so it's clear that was never the only goal.

I also think that if a lack of correlation between the FBI most wanted list and the motivation for the War on Terror was anything to be sceptical of, then it would have occurred to the US government (including the White House and FBI here as a single entity) to adjust the FBI most wanted page to include the events of 9/11. Finally, from a quick scan of the rest of the list, it does not seem to me that there needs to be definitive proof of guilt for an individual to appear here...so they could just as well have accused him of it: it's all much of a muchness IMO.

Regarding the actual death of OBL, I am in two minds. On one hand, regardless of the trial, death was always going to be the outcome and the way it has come about allows the sidestepping of many difficult logistical problems: where he would be put on trial and the associated security risk, on the other, a fair trial is supposed to be one of the tenets of American society...but I'll not shed any tears.

JS123

moniclub

3rd May '11

On the question of culpability, try the 2004 videotape (NB not just an audiotape) in which UBL says he personally directed the 19 hijackers, and describes his motivation (according to Wikipedia using a BBC translation):

"I will explain to you the reasons behind these events, and I will tell you the truth about the moments when this decision was taken, so that you can reflect on it. God knows that the plan of striking the towers had not occurred to us, but the idea came to me when things went just too far with the American-Israeli alliance's oppression and atrocities against our people in Palestine and Lebanon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videos_and_audio_recordings_of_Osama_bin_Laden

M

kenobi

3rd May '11

I'm not entirely clear what you are sceptical of?

The whole thing to be honest, I can't say what I believe happened, I don't know if obl was a cia agent, if he worked with the ISI, if 911 was a false flag operation, all of it.

I wasn't suggesting they invaded afgahnistan to kill bin laden, they did invade in order to get al queda, and close down their training camps, and to get obl "dead or alive" as they say out west, perhaps that quote rings a bell.

We hear today he was unarmed when caught, but they shot him anyway ? twice in the head to be sure ?
I don't know what to think, surely obl would have been a fantasic prisoner to take, and interrogate ?

mind you who's to say that they didn't, and just said he'd been killed ? that sounds like the best of both world from the US point of view ?

Of course if he's either an agent or has been dead for many years, the whole thing could be faked, who knows ?

I really don't know what to believe to be honest, there are a ton of conspiracy theories, some seem nuts, but others, make me wonder if there isn't more to this than meets the eye, I don't want to get into a big debate about conspiracy theories but for example, this is rather shocking

http://deadlinelive.info/2011/03/03/memory-hole-video-of-the-day-dan-rather-cbs-fbi-involvement-in-1993-wtc-bombing/

the fbi, had an source, involved with bombing the wtc in 93, Salem, he wanted to give the bombers fake explosives, they refused, said use real explosives, and the plot went ahead, and he's arrested and prosecuted for the attack. Guess what turns out he has hours of audio recordings with the handlers at the fbi discussing the whole thing ? so they would have let him take the wrap for this ? I cannot definitively 100% say this is all 100% true but it really makes me wonder.

kenobi

4th May '11

On the question of culpability, try the 2004 videotape

whereas, in an announcement in 2001 he said,

I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation

so at best the bin laden tapes are inconsistent, I'm not too sure that all the videos are bin laden, and as for the recent audio tapes, why would he issue audio tapes ? perhaps because some of the video tapes have been questioned, particularly the so called confession tape from 2001 and the more recent one that appeared to skip frames and be if not computer generated, certainly manipulated in some way as if to match video to a later produced audio, but why do this ? perhaps because he's already been killed or wounded, or showing symptoms of some disease ?

I don't know to be honesst, all I'm saying is that I haven't seen any evidence that obl was responsible,
I accept theres this confession, likewise they've denied it too. You'd think directly after 911 they'd have been crowing about it ? but they might have lied to deter retaliation I guess ? The US were convinced in 2001, and they said they would publish the proof ?

then there is the video of Benazir Bhutto, where she refers to the man who killed bin laden (in an interview with frost,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg&feature=related see at 2:15,
my respect for frost is somewhat reduced in that someone said to him, the person who killed bin laden and he missed it. of course she's dead now , assasinated, so we can't go back and ask her about the interview unfortunately.

Cuthbert C

4th May '11

perhaps Elvis did it.

emptyend

4th May '11

I must say that I find it remarkable that people can apparently seriously believe that Bin Laden hasn't been killed. Granted the body itself hasn't and can't been poked and prodded by the sceptics - but is a just enormous stretch from there to some of the tripe that has been suggested in some sections of the media over the last few days.

You want to take on the US? - be prepared to be hunted down and killed, however long that might take.

That is a very important message to send out, regardless of whether there was any possibility that Bin Laden might have been taken alive in a raid in a foreign country under the noses of military who hadn't been informed of the action.

kenobi

4th May '11

well, ee,

I have no idea if he's been killed or not, but seeing as the story coming from the white house is changing all the time, and now it appears he was unarmed, as were the guards ? it seems entirely plausible that he was captured, to me. If I were president I would have him captured if at all possible, and fake some evidence, then put him in this seasons fashion (orange jump suit), and have him spill the beans and use the info to dismantle al queda. Don't know why that would seem such as extraordinary suggestion. And now it seems that the only people who fired a shot were the navy seals, capturing him alive does not seem like such an unlikely outcome.

If they didn't it was either a kill mission from the start or they just got carried away during the mission. Imagine the intelligence value of a live obl. Only if you announced that you had him alive would it be a liability, there maybe rumours but tournesol's response indicates how seriously they would be taken.

or alternatively as tournesol elvis did it, the same chap who hid the wmd's ?
maybe elvis planted the passport of some of the hijackers on the new york strees after 911 ?
and maybe elvis faked the pictures of iraqi prisoners being tortured in iraqi prisoners ?
maybe it was elvis' fans on tour who were rendered to eastern europe and the middle east for
torture a kind of rendition tour ??

I would suggest that our government/intelligence agencies have a bit more about them that we give them credit for sometimes. But if you prefer to follow the party line, that's fine, I really don't want to get into an extended thread about it, Governments around the world lie to the people, often they get away with it, often they get caught out, sometimes it takes a long time,

K

thebuffoon

4th May '11

One can fruitlessly debate for years whether OBL was responsible for this and that but the fact is that he was an integral and senior part of a dangerous organisation that has admitted responsibility for a string of murderous attacks - and, as much as anything else, his death is symbolic:

Absolutely.

Let's also not forget that he is (OK allegedly..) responsible for killing more Muslims than the US and their Allies put together.

Having said that, Benazir Bhutto did say that she knew the killer of OBL back in 2007; so who knows how many body doubles he had?

Buffy

Cuthbert C

4th May '11

Maybe OBL did not have anything to do with 9/11

but I know for a fact that he was on the grassy knoll when JFK was shot.

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Flyingbull

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